Genealogy

» seanito - IRISH AMERICANS????

Ive seen some posts by 'irish americans' on here who seem to think that there is such thing as 'black irish'....Actually this term was invented by jewish monopoly media who have been promoting multi racial mixing in america and all over the world. They invent terms to make mixed races seem more acceptable. Whilst they promote non jewish mixing, so as to preserve there race!....Learn about it

And No, there is no such thing as 'black irish'....in ireland people would laugh at you if you suggested this!.....it is a common feature of the original celtic tribes in europe. But they are certainly not called 'black irish'

-- posted by seanito

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» cestes - Black Irish

Thank you so much for the article on Black Irish/Dutch and the reference to the site at http://www.suite101.com/external_link.cf... My gramma always said we were Black Irish and that meant we were of Native American descent and I always wondered if she were right, she was dark skinned, eye and hair. Whether it is an actual term used by the folks in Ireland or not or whether it's even actually Irish doesn't matter, it shows there is something to the Indian angle and that they actually did use this terminology, that makes it a real deal because it has become an actual term to denote the ethnicity.
This helps settle the curiosity. Thank you again!!

-- posted by cestes

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» cestes - connection between Celts and Native Americans?

I've read there is a strong possibility of a connection between Celtic and American Indian culture and perhaps bloodlines (Rainbow Tribe by Ed McGaa, Ch. 3 I believe). Could be true?

-- posted by cestes

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» Steve28 - IRISH AMERICANS????

In response to IRISH AMERICANS???? posted by seanito:
I'm Irish and in Ireland and I can tell you that there is the "black irish". Its an old reference to irish celts who are small, black haired and pale skinned. It was argued that these folk where descendants of those in the Spanish Armada who mixed with the locals when they landed off the west coast of Ireland. But there's the other theory that the black irish, are a throwback to the folk that roamed ireland before the arrival of the Celts in 300 BC. However this theory has since been laid to rest after recent studies show that the celts have been in ireland much longer. Although I would tend to think that the rest of Ireland (i.e not the west) would have mingled more with outsiders like the normans, vikings and anglo saxons, so the "black irish" look could possibly be the true mark of a celt. But as the modern irish celts have distinctive genes from the rest of europe its hard to say that its the mark of the celt.

There's also a Carribean island called Montserrat. It was originally settled by Irish convicts sent by their British captors, and the island eventually became a haven for black African slaves. The irish and their African neighbours inter breeded and a result of which is a black people with irish names! Today the descendants look black, but mostly have irish names and actually celebrate their irishness even today. I've seen a few documentary's about the island and its heritage on Irish TV.

An even more modern reference is more of a slang, which refers to the treatment of the Irish by the British...and it was common, right up until the 70's for the Irish to refer to themselves as the black's of europe, as 2nd class citizens.

Maybe the Jewish media are just using an age old term of reference and applying it to something else to suit their own agenda? Which is what I assume you're suggesting. They certainly didn't invent the term. Its been banded about here since as far back when time began. (I'm allowed to blemish it with exageration - I'm Irish!!)

I daresay its a term that has filtered down many of the irish that emigrated to the States and as the previous poster points out - her mum used the term to describe herself. She could have very well picked up the term from elders in her own clan.

With the welcome influx of immigrants into Ireland from Africa, eastern europe, and other places in the last 10 years, I daresay the term will be applied to to their children and their childrens children. And why not, its never been a term of insult, as far as I know its always been a warm term of endearment normally applied to the self rather than others.

-- posted by Steve28

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» blckirish - black irish ?

You can see my other posts a year ago under the name blckirish.

In this post -

-the difference between celts and picts
-eskimo-irish relation theory
-native americans hiding as "black irish"

My theory is that the Picts, who were on Ireland before the Celts, are a branch of the mongoloid race, akin to eskimos. There was a book "the brendan voyage" written in the 70s or 80s that chronicled a recreation of the brendan voyage, where Irish monks made a skin boat and sailed to Iceland before 1000 AD. We only know about it because their manuscripts survive. Remember, the druids before them didn't write anything down in case it fell into unworthy hands. The Vikings also made it to Iceland Greenland and North America. The fact that the Irish traditionally had skin boats, there was this definite ability to travel to eskimo lands and no one knows what language the picts spoke, I would say that the original Irish the Picts were an eskimo type people. There are distinctive "shovel shaped incisors" that only people of asian, eskimo, inuit or native american people have, I'm going to have my sister an orthdontic assistant look at our teeth. Unless there's some eskimo or Asian somewhere in my family which is incredibly unlikely as my family went from Roscommon, New York, Montana, and then Washington state then my family is some old throwback to this original Irish. My grandmother looked asian or eskimo and she was born in Montana. Her dad, 100% Irish, was only 5'4".
The picts probably got to Ireland in the last ice ages and were "marooned " there when the ice receded as one of the southernmost of the eskimo/inuit branch. This could explain the diabetes (a hunting people now living on starches) and alcoholism so common in my family history as well as many Irish (if black irish do have the genes of a inuit type people, we may lack the enzyme for processing alcohol just like native americans). It would make neat study. If people in Ireland test true for the teeth and lack of alcohol metabolizing enzyme, they are inuit type. If only "black irish" in America have these traits, it is people with Native american or other "undesireable" dark blood passing themselves off as black irish to avoid persecution.
As far as the Celts go - they were a completely different people than the Picts. They were very tall and fair, and their diet and economy was based on animal herding, and later, grain growing. They stretched from siberia and western china to the atlantic and then through many many wars were enventually "pushed off the edge of the earth" to ireland, they had spread there for the good land as they were being fought on the east side by new peoples. Eventually only the water barrier is what left Ireland a Celtic Refuge (and the hills of wales made it hard to conquer. The rugged landscape and their own grit is what protected the scots).

-- posted by blckirish

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» blckirish - african american black irish

as far as "black" black irish -

I'm always noticing extremely dark African American football players with the most Irish of Irish names. It's a known fact that Irish used to fear and dislike blacks because they competed for the same lowest level jobs and irish feared free blacks would undercut the wages. I think black Americans chose Irish names similarly to how Native Americans called themselves "black Irish " - they chose names from the lowest and most numerous of white classes,the Irish, to blend in - the native americans could pass in person and the African Americans could pass on paper for "just poor Irish". I know some black families have Irish blood - I met a black man with sea green eyes - but the majority especially the very dark I think arbitrarily chose Irish names.
The Carribean is a different story - there are islands where mullatoes still speak gaelic - but on the mainland of North America I theorize this is the reason.
We all deserve to know our ancestry's truth no matter what someone else in the past thought was "appropriate".

-- posted by blckirish

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» blckirish - genetic ancestry testing

The national geographic test only finds your fathers father father father or mothers mothers mother mother etc. it does not give you a true picture of the majority of your genealogy.

If you want a comprehensive test showing what percentage of what you are from both sides, male and female ancestors, you need to do a comprehensive test
http://www.genetree.com/ancestral/index....
http://www.ancestrybydna.com/welcome/hom...

-- posted by blckirish

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» blckirish - gene testing

it's called the autosomal genetic test (all genes from every side ). Different companies make them, they start at about $200.

-- posted by blckirish

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» genome - black irish ?

In response to black irish ? posted by blckirish:

Hi There,
I'm facinated by your article! I am Irish and have been unbelievably curious about the true ethnic identity of Irish people ever since I was a kid. I am somewhat of an expert on the Celts and all subsequent invaiders - but know very little about the pre-Celts. All I know is from the archeological remains that have been found. They were tiny - max. 5'5" (grown men), were dark haired and slender. They have found the remains of an entire tribe in the caves in Killkenny. Outside the caves they found some Celtic weapons and some bodies of larger peoples. The bodies inside the caves were mostly of women and children and were virtually unharmed. Between the two groups of bodies was a huge mass of carbon - i.e. the Celts tried to smoke the pre-celts out from the caves where they hid - and they all died of smoke inhilation. I know that the Celtic people were never an ethnic race - they believed fundementally in race mixing - to gain the strengths of both tribes and have good trade relations with both etc... They also didn't put much stock in permanent marriages so most women had children by many different men - and this added to the strength and alli's of the family. They also were big into adoption etc. so no-one ever got left behind... so from what we know they were an extremely well structured society that had basically thought of everything and were very egalitarian. See the Brehon Laws for further details.

But ... one REALLY interesting theory - is what you mentioned... that the Pre-Celts were of Asian/Native American/ Inuit origin. This could well be true!! Geologically speaking, the west coast of Ireland is entirely different to the east. In fact, fossilised remains of tropical and native american plants have been found in the cliffs of Moher and throughout the landscape of the west - the theory is that the west half of Ireland broke away from the Americas and gradually made its way across the Atlantic until it colided with a landbank - which was the east half of Ireland which had broken away from Britain. With this in mind... could it be possible that there were people on this land? Is this why people from the west of Ireland are so much darker than the east coast people? Or ... has it more to do with middle-eastern people? The fact that we have the same singing style, musical instruments and mythologies is astounding... so there must be a connection to Iran/ Jordan/ Syria too... there's certainly the same temperment and also the gramatical structure of Arabic is identical to Gaelic!!

Can you tell me more about the 'teeth' differences between Europeans and Inuits? I've never heard of that one!

Thanks!!

-- posted by genome

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» blckirish - black irish ?

In response to black irish ? posted by genome:

Hello! I googled "black irish eskimo" and my old post came up! I am so happy to see a response! : ) I never heard about those archeological finds, of the full grown men no taller than 5'5" and with dark hair. That describes my "black irish" family very well. The cave where all the picts died, with the larger bodies outside, show that the celts and picts were clearly very different people and were fighting to the death over resources (what else do people ever fight about? especially on a rather small island, and the celts were very fertile - it is estimated ireland today only has a quarter or third of the population it once had. Ireland used to be all forest, and the peat bogs actually were created from the deforestation).

About the teeth - people with asian, eskimo or native american ancestry have very high rates of "shovel shaped incisors". Your dentist can tell you if you have them or not. Supposedly europeans have them in "much lower rates" and I think the fact this trait shows up at all in europeans ever is due to early caucasoid admixture with the mongoloid peoples of europe before the mongoloid peoples were completely anihilated/absorbed/pushed out to other territory - the picts (some people say their might have even been a pre-pict, also dark and short), the small dark "skraelings" of scandinavia who were likwise pushed out by the caucasoid norse etc., and the siberian eskimo-type peoples of russia.

When the celts showed up, it was probably as disparate as when the pioneers arrived in America and displaced the native americans- one people who cleared forests, farmed land and grazed animals for meat and milk, and the native people who hunted and fished and left their great forests alone. I am sure they fought mostly over land and I am sure if we checked the DNA we would see very little pictish male line DNA and only mostly pictish mitochondrial (mother's) DNA (the pictish women taken as slaves or wives by celtic men, and the pictish men killed in war. Same pattern as most hispanic bloodlines - spanish male line, native female line).

I have heard too that part of europe is actually geologically part of the appalachians, but that would be even pre-dinosaur times I think.

That is fascinating about arabic and gaelic having the same grammatical structure! because I knew there were shared instruments - for instance, the bagpipe and other "Drone" instruments. I myself love celtic music, the other music I love is middle eastern. I took years of bellydancing classes and feel a strong draw to that culture. They are both known to be very hospitable too and love to talk for hours . . . ?

There is some thought that the Celtic-Arabic connection may have been through the scythians who some people say were celtic. Others say that is not true. The fact that everyone came out of the middle east, I don't see why the scythians couldn't be celtic, protoceltic, or "cousins". The mummies in western china looked pretty darn celtic to a lot of people (very tall, caucasian, red haired, and wearing plaid). The celts were actually the dominant race of a lot of europe and it looks like eurasia for a long time in antiquity, until they got pushed further and further east until they had to get onto the last place at the edge of the world and displace who was already there. The celts were primarily a horse people, inland people, from the middle of the eurasian continent, which explains why they were so doggedly determined to clear the forests for grazing ground in ireland when vast abundances of fish were all around them, and dairy and even land meat was not neccessary (seal could be taken, which is like beef. People in ireland just 100 years ago hunted seal from a leather "curragh" which looks so close to a eskimo umiak, it's scary. Plus leather boat voyages had been made back and forth to iceland and greenland, eskimo country, sometime well before the 6th century ). Thousands of years of steppe/grassland living had taught the Celts their way of life and they were not about to change all of it.

Also, I have a book called something like "recollections of an old woman", oral stories from an old irish woman taped and written down, a lot of it translated straight from gaelic, and she tells the tale that had been passed down to her, of a noblewoman who had a great estate, and a man working for her she thought highly of, but he couldn't get anyone to marry him because he was "very short, with straight, lank black hair, squinty eyes, bowed legs, and sallow yellowish skin", so she aranged a marriage for him. Those are not put in the most flattering terms, but does that not sounds to you like a japanese or eskimo? Certainly very different than the tall fair celts. It is clear to see that what was considered attractive was what looked like the ruling class, naturally. I would say he was surely of strong 'black irish" heritage.

There are many who think of the black irish as having light eyes and dark, often curly hair.

Also, the gypsies did make it into ireland and speak a mix of romany and gaelic there (as well as english), and are known as "tinkers". However, they appear to be very fair for the most part (picking up people as they went who wanted to "run away with the gypsies" to escape the law or see the world?).

lots of info : ) I am going to do the dna consultants test for myself, my spouse and as many of my family as are interested and we can afford as soon as possible. Although it doesn't tell you percentages like other autosomal tests do, it gives you specific countries and large tribal groups rather than just native american, european, it can pinpoint regions.

-- posted by blckirish

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